Showing posts with label Honda. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Honda. Show all posts

Tuesday, January 3, 2017

Small capacity adventure bike comparison (2017)

Small capacity adventure motorcycles for 2017 - Honda CRF 250L, Honda CRF250 Rally, BMW G 310 GS, Kawasaki Versys-X 300, Yamaha WR250R, Suzuki V-Strom 250
Small capacity adventure motorcycles for 2017 - Honda CRF 250L, Honda CRF250 Rally, BMW G 310 GS, Kawasaki Versys-X 300, Yamaha WR250R, Suzuki V-Strom 250

For some reason several manufacturers have suddenly all come up with new small capacity offerings for 2017. The "entry level" bikes show a lot of promise and are a much cheaper alternative to the traditional GS type bikes. While the small bikes can't compete when it comes to on road performance, there is much promise and I myself like this new trend a lot. (I came to the conclusion earlier that a 250 would be nearly ideal to me). The only niggle with these new offerings is that many if not all of them are more or less compromises when it comes to suspension for example. The bikes look the part, but may not deliver the kind of ruggedness or capability as one would perhaps expect.

The age old moan still stands though as many people are still wishing and hoping that the big companies would come out with similar bikes in the 450-500 range. Honda almost did with CB500X, but as it is heavily road biased it's quite not what the adventure  crowd wants.

I'm very much looking forward to testing all of the new offerings come spring, but for now I have to stick to evaluate the bikes based on the specs. Personally I'm so close to getting a 250 I can taste it. The more I think about the more sense it makes to me.  Why? Because of couple of factors.

Adventure bike spec comparison chart (click to enlarge)

Things that I'm looking for in these bikes / my next bike

1. I want my bike to relatively new and cheap (preferably under warranty, which makes Hondas particularly attractive as they have the longest warranty*)

2. I want lightness. My skillset as a rider needs all the help I can get.

3. I want to be able to drop the bike with the financial consequences being manageable. In other words, I don't want the possible cost of spills to limit my riding or constantly be in the back of my head.

4. I like simple, much more than I like horsepower, bells & whistles or status value.

*may not apply to other counties

Whats specs are important (to me)?

1 ergos (stand up postion, knee angle and so on)
2 weight
3 price
4 suspension
5 power to weight ratio
6 range

Thats my list, your order of importance may be different.

ERGOS
By the numbers available (Kawi and Suzuki aren't yet on cycle-ergo)  would want to go with the WR with the second option being the 250 Rally. While the L and the Rally are very similar the ergos are in favor of the Rally for stand up riding. Looking at the Kawasaki and Suzuki, it is very unlikely that their ergos will be equal to the WR or Rally. Their seats are lower and the geometry would suggest a more "crouched" riding position with more knee bend and riding standing up is likely to be less comfortable.

WEIGHT
Yamaha is +30 kilos lighter than the three  fatties, Suzuki, BMW and Kawasaki. The Honda is still acceptable even in the fatter Rally trim, but the Suzuki and Kawi certainly are not.

PRICE
Here the WR takes a beating. It's just way too pricey. When you are asking more than BMW is, you know you have overdone it. The Honda is a downright bargain given the known quality and long warranty. As an added bonus, there seems to be a good selection of low mileage bikes available even here in the edges of civilization. Suzuki and Kawasaki are priced identically, but Kawasaki literally gives you more bang for the buck.

SUSPENSION
WR gives you the most suspension travel and assumably the best quality suspension too. (Adjustability and all). The internet wise men say that Honda has improved from previous years, but that remains to be seen. As far as Honda's suspension travel, there is conflicting info floating on the net.  Kawasakis suspension travel numbers seem off, but I got them from the official site, so maybe that really is it? BMW is only slightly better than Kawasaki, but sporting those alloy wheels, so in my eyes the Bavarian goes to the bottom of the pile with Suzuki. As for tire sizes, Honda and Yamaha are the only one offering proper 21' fronts. It is telling that Suzuki is not even giving out the suspension travel information. Suzuki's suspension is just referred to as "long travel suspension" and supposedly that should suffice.

POWER & TORQUE
Yamaha and Kawasaki are topping the power /weight ratio chart, but given the fact that the Versys is a bit of a fattie for the class, Yamaha takes the cake. BMW produces good power and torque numbers, but suffers from it's heavy weight.

BMW bashing aside, Hondas are yet again at the bottom when it comes to producing power or torque. Sort of a similar case with the AT, but that's not necessarily a disaster in itself.

The worst of the bunch is Suzuki though. It doesn't have the weakest engine, but given it's horrible weight, it's power to weight ratio is the clearly at the bottom of the pack.

RANGE
This is sort of insignificant as any issues can easily be solved with fuel bladders, Rotopax containers etc. The theory is though that longer range is better, so in case of a tie, range could be a factor. Consumption numbers aren't available for all bikes so I had to make assumptions. Given the similar weight, power and engine size, differences in fuel consumption should be minimal. Kawasaki blows the competition away in this category. The 17 litre tank gives the Versys over double the range of Honda and Yamaha.

CONCLUSION
The sudden onslaught of mini adventure bikes makes it seem that all the big OEMs suddenly heard the moaning and murmur from the adventure crowd for a lighter, cheaper less complicated machines. As usual the message seems to have been somewhat lost in translation as many of the offerings are just miniaturized versions of their bigger brothers. This again translates to not added agility, lightness and simplicity, but obese, sluggish look-alike bikes Suzuki being the worst example. Yamaha who has not jumped on this band wagon, ironically has the strongest bike offering in this category.

Below is my biased, unprofessional and unscientific scoring chart which will stand until I get to ride them all. (keep in mind that all the data was not available)


Small capacity adventure bike comparison scoring table
Small capacity adventure bike comparison scoring table (total = average score)
KTM will most likely offer something a bit more serious, but as the engine size is not known, it's debatable if KTM's offering will even fit in this category.

HONDA - Honda CRF250 Rally



The 250 Rally went from a concept to reality in one year. While it's essentially a CRF250L with minor mods, it looks good and the mods make sense. For some reason the Rally makes more power than the 250L for 2017. Why on earth can't the performance specs be equal of the two bikes is a mystery to me.

Update Feb 10th


Saw the bike in the flesh at the local dealer. Looked a bit plasticky, but otherwise nice. Pics below.





















+ best looking of the bunch
+ reasonably priced
- still a bit low on power
- suspension?

 

Honda CRF250L


2017 Honda CRF250L
2017 Honda CRF250L
It's been around for a while now and has had only minor improvements for 2017. Suspension isn't exactly stellar, but given the enormous amount of bang for buck it's understandable.

+ good value
+ proven reliability + good warranty
- suspension


SUZUKI - Suzuki V-Strom 250


The V-Strom looks like the least appealing bike from my perspective. It's the heaviest and has the least potential to be an "offroader" Looking at the specs alone is not really fair, but I can't find anything that would justify choosing it over the others.The Suzukis twin is significantly weaker than Kawasakis power plant.

Upgrading the DR-Z400 and making it EU compliant would have made a far better bike.

+ ?
- heavy
- poor power/weight ratio
- too much fairings
- wheels


KAWASAKI - Kawasaki Versys 300X



The 300x is one of the two twin powered bikes in the group, but the overly clothed appearance and the twin engine make the heavy. It does produce the most hps, but given the 170kg weight the balance is a bit off in my opinion. The bike is certainly affordable, but someone looking for a light, small capacity adventure machine may find the weight hard to justify. I find the Kawasaki styling a bit late 90s, but that's just me and makes no difference if the machine performs well.

Photos below are from the Stockholm Motorcycle Show

Kawasaki Versys 300X

Kawasaki Versys 300X

Kawasaki Versys 300X

Kawasaki Versys 300X

Kawasaki Versys 300X

Kawasaki Versys 300X

Kawasaki Versys 300X

Kawasaki Versys 300X

Kawasaki Versys 300X




Kawasaki has also stopped importing the KLX250S (at least in some EU countries) , so the 250S is no longer an option for those looking for a brand new bike.

+ the only twin in the group
+ big tank
- too much fairings
- heavy

BMW - BMW GS



The GS is riding heavily on the fame of the older brothers, but doesn't really seem to be designed for the same task. Styling wise the bike seems a bit overdone. It looks like they tried to force the GS clothes on it and they don't quite fit. The BMW is the only bike in the group with alloy wheels. Pricing should be competitive with the others, but that's just a guess based on how the bike is priced overseas. The 310 is the torque king of the group.

+ most torque
- alloy wheels
- styling


YAMAHA - Yamaha WR250R


Yamaha has sort of missed the boat and has not brought anything new to compete with the new offerings. That said the WR is probably still the best bike of the bunch. Class leading power to weight ratio and best suspension of the lot. Another big thing is the weight. The WR weighs only 134 kgs wet, which is much more in the neighborhood what these 250 should weigh. If you look purely at the specs, it's a bit of a mystery where all the development of the other bikes has gone as they are all slower and heavier by comparison.

+ weight
+ suspension
- price



KTM - KTM 390 Adventure


The 390 adventure is a bit of a mystery still. It's coming out in 2018 and it may be bigger than 390. If that's true, KTM may have real winner in it's hands.

I'm also wondering what happened to the spied 390 supermoto? It seems that it was quietly dropped.


[UPDATE March 2017]

The 690 is gone and a brand new Honda CRF 250 Rally is waiting for me at the bike shop.
The story continues here https://honda250rally.com/






Monday, June 22, 2015

The next bike after the 690 Enduro R

Different approaches of replacing the 690 Enduro


No, it's not yet time, but at some point it will be. (maybe spring 2017 at the earliest). I sort of enjoy this kind of pointless pondering so I wrote my thoughts down.

As far as bikes, it feels that I've found my niche so to say and I certainly want to stay "in category". What ever the next bike will be it should be in the dual sport category or at least in the "adventure" category. I have come to appreciate simplicity and lightness over comfort and power. Skilled riders can make dual sports of even the big ADV bikes, but that's them, not me.

Road map to my next bike?

I tried to visualize (above) the different approaches available, while still staying (loosely) in the adventure category. The list of bikes on the illustration is far from complete, but it gives some idea of what I have in mind when going to a certain direction.

Disclaimer

Before anyone gets offended by me "disrespecting" their bike or getting in any way worked up. Don't. I fully recognize that this is just a one man's opinion and all in all an ass backwards way of approaching motorcycling (be it adventure riding or something else). It should be about the riding, not the bikes. This is how the world of motorcycles look to me and this rambling is mostly for my own entertainment. I've thrown bikes into categories, but I'm sure some will feel that some bikes are in the wrong category.

It seems that getting something else than another 690 Enduro R will likely move my motorcycling to some direction. There is nothing out there that would be a direct competitor to the 690 Enduro in a sense that it would offer very similar specs and performance. Simplified very strongly, it's either more power and weight and worse off road performance or less power and weight and similar off road performance.



The can't buy category

Some interesting stuff just isn't available in europe. The KLR and DRZ to name a few. Despite the fact that these bikes exist, there is no point contemplating them because they simply can't be bought. There are also bikes that ARE sold in Europe, but I would categorize to the can't buy section too because of total lack of domestic retailers or service network. (CCM Motorcycles being a good example)

Suzuki DR-Z400 is one of the bikes that money can't buy in Europe


Choosing a bike by numbers alone?

Some bikes and numbers from each category
Choosing a bike by numbers alone is not a working solution to begin with. Let alone doing it by only few numbers. Not much can be derived from the table above. The variation is too big and there should at least be some sort of points system to give more weight to the numbers that actually matter. And that doesn't really work either.

Below is a chart I did back in 2014 just for fun to see what bike I should get solely by the numbers. I chose a selection of bikes, entered the "key" data and weighted the points according to my priorities back then. By the numbers I should have bought the 250 Honda and the 690 E wasn't even in the top 5.


Choosing a bike is not an exact sience in a way that you just fall for some bikes no matter what the so called facts say. Oh, and the actual feel of the bike is probably most important. That can't be derived from numbers.


The different approaches 

The BIG adventure route


Here we have the big BMWs, Super Teneres, KTM 1190 Adventure and so on. The upcoming Honda "Africa Twin" is a bit of a mystery. I don't know if it really fits in with the big BMWs as Teneres, but until proven otherwise it's mentally in this category. If nothing else, it will be priced similarly.

PROS
- Power
- Comfort
- Technical goodies

CONS
- Weight
- Price

I honestly can not take this route. I can not afford it and even if I could I could not imagine myself taking these bikes to the places I want to be able to go. I'm not skilled enough to do it and I don't have the wallet to live with the consequenses. The big bikes also have a sort of disconnected feel, that the smaller simpler machines don't. Also, while I'm sure these bikes can commute, I'm not sure I would enjoy that.

The middle weight adventure route


This is GS800 and Triumph 800 country.

PROS
- Power
- Comfort
- Technical goodies

CONS
- Weight
- Price

On paper, the perfect compromise, right? Somewhat more manageable than the big ADVs, but still way too cumbersome when one is used to the 690. I tested the Triumph XC800 recently and while it was good in many ways it's just still too much of everything. To me these bikes have all the same cons as the big ADVs.

The small displacement Dual sport


Honda, Kawasaki and Yamaha have very capable 250cc dual sports.

PROS
- Weight
- Price
- Simplicity

CONS

- Power
- Comfort
- kind of excludes track days

These bikes are the opposite of the big ADVs when it comes to the pros and cons. For me this is the lot of bang for the buck category. Roaming the forums and test riding all of the 250 cc bikes (Kawi, Honda and Yamaha) have convinced me that this is the route I might take. I have no doubt that these bikes couln't do almost anything that you ask of them with the exception of riding two up and doing track days. I rode on the back seat of a Honda 250L and I never wan't to do that again. It wasn't because the bike wouldn't get us where we were going, it was just too small for that. Track days on the other hand... I just don't see it being fun amongst all the bigger bikes.

The Scrambler



Invention as old as the pyramids (almost). Scramblers are (hopefully) making some sort of a commercial comeback. Lord knows we have had thousands of garage built speciments filling sites like bikeEXIF for years.

PROS
- Simplicity
- cool factor (yeah, I said it)
- power
- comfort to a degree

CONS

- "fragile"
- suspension
- price

I really liked the Triumph Scrambler I had back in 2010 and I did'd hate the new Ducati Urban enduro either. Scramblers are a bit pricey for what they really are, but they seem to a charm to them that no other bikes in my "categorisation" have. Going Scrambler would mean ditching my dreams of riding the really bad roads and doing river crossing and such, but maybe the improved road manners will eventually make up for that? I am tempted. I can just envision it though... Taking my spotless Ducati Scrambler to places my skill set can't handle and then crying myself to sleep after scratching and dinging 2000 € worth of panels, tanks and bits. There's an upside to owning a bike that has panels made out of plastic buckets. Then again, track days on a Scrambler should be spectacularly fun.

The Supermoto way


Not many choices in this category. It's either KTM or KT... I mean Husqvarna 701. Sure there are pure bread supermotos out there, but they are just as impractial for road use as the pure bread enduro bikes. The 250cc class has some supermoto type offerings, but the supermoto experience needs a bit more oomph than what a road going 250cc can provide.


PROS
- Simplicity
- power / weight ratio
- handling!
- fun!

CONS

- comfort
- being possibly associated with wheelie hooligans...

It was a coin toss with between the Enduro R and SMCR when I bough my current bike. If I had gotten to test ride the SMCR I probably would have picked that instead of the enduro. It's that much fun. You can swap the wheels around on both, but truthfully it's not that simple. The SMCR is set up differently, it's not just the wheels. If I come to the conclusion, by the time it's time change bikes, that the 690 is the superior platform for a motorcycle I will probably go with the SMCR (or Husky 701 if KTM decides to kill the SMCR as the rumor goes.) I'm repeating myself, but the SMCR was the most fun I've had on a race track and really miss that.

Going electric


Very fashionable still. The future is electric and all that. Mountains of torque and Tie Fighter sounds, right? Pure bliss in a eco self-righteous way.

PROS
- Simplicity
- power / weight ratio
- handling!
- weight (depends on bike)

CONS

- weight (depends on bike)
- RANGE
- price
- resale value?

My opinion is that for most types of adventure riding or dual sporting electric is not an option. I would not want to wonder in to the "desert" knowing that I would need to find a electricity in and hour or so. Nor would I want to go explore the countryside of an unknown country with a range of 150 kms and not knowing if I can recharge the bike anywhere. Let alone, go to really isolated places where I know there is no electricity. Even if I was just riding the countryside on paved roads and had planned charging places beforehand, I'm not really keen on sitting on my ass for 5-8 hours waiting my zero DS to charge fully. Most importantly, with current tech, a basic 300 km day trip would mean equal amount of riding and charging, turning a 5 hour ride into a 12 hour ordeal. That said, once/if they get the ranges up and/or charging times down significantly I'm in.


The hypermotos


To my knowledge this is an Italian invention and a good one at that. I don't know what the proper term for these bikes are, but I've been calling them hypermotos, meaning supermotos on steroids. To my knowledge only Ducati, Aprilia have current offerings in this category. KTM used to have 990 supermoto which was a beast of a machine too, but apparently didn't sell well enough,

PROS
- power / weight ratio
- handling
- ergos
- weight
- presumanly fun on track too

CONS

- weight
- price


The hypermotos are wondering pretty far from the adventure category, but with proper tires could do gravel roads just as well as any scrambler. The hypers are also sort of light, but only by comparison to big / middle weight ADVs. The Ducati I tried, was very very nice on the road. One of the best I've ever tried. Somehow I just don't think that I would be able to enjoy it on the gravel roads as much as a down to earth scrambler. The Duc is also pretty expensive while the Aprilia can be had for quite a bit less. The hypermotard is a bike that I want, but just not enough to justify the price.


The pseudo adventure Category



This is tricky. Plenty of offerings here. Whether or not they all belong to this category is certainly debatable. These are do it all bikes that excel at nothing and that's not really a fascinating sales point.

PROS
- little of everything
- practical
- comfy
- value for money

CONS

- weight
- fragile
- too much of a compromise

The Honda NC750X had me sold at one point. It's many virtues included fuel efficiency, storage space, low center of gravity, price etc. I still sometimes think that I might have been better of with an NC given what my riding actually mostly consists of (commuting). Despite the marketing talk, it's not a dream machine, far from it. Nor is it really built for the rigors of off roading. Similar bikes like the CB500X, Kawasaki Versys have an adventure look to them with plastic "bash plates" and such but really require some modification to be actually used as rough road adventure bikes. Now the definition of "adventure riding" is such that I'm not even going to try, but to me an adventure bike should be able to do roads that your family car can't. Nothing more nothing less. In that respect there's nothing pseudo about a CB500X for example. Most likely it will perform just fine. Dual sports and dual sporting are a different thing.

Is there a conclusion?

Well sort of. Something interesting is bound to pop up by the time it's time to upgrade, so these thoughs are probably dates by then.



My top three plans of action are
1. 250cc dual sport OR maybe a KTM 390 Adventure???? (rumors are getting stronger...)
2. a pseudo adventurer
3. a scrambler


My reasoning for the 250cc bikes taking the top spot are:
- relatively cheap, you can buy a brand new one and still have money for food
- they are relatively simple machines that don't have a million things to go wrong
- light and easy to handle
- rugged, I'll drop it eventually anyway when off the pavement
- cheap to fix, the plastic bucket panel material pays of again
- good fuel economy

[UPDATE July 19th 2015]
Now that the trip up north is done, I must say that there is just absolutely nothing wrong with 690. The bike did everything that I asked it to do and had plenty of capability both on and off road well beyond my own capabilities or skills.

In this respect there is nothing that would justify changing the 690 for something else. At some point, it maybe sensible to trade for a newer bike simply to minimize the probability for general wear and tear related technical issues. The 690 E truly is an exceptional machine.

[UPDATE March 2017]

The 690 is gone and a brand new Honda CRF 250 Rally is waiting for me at the bike shop.
The story continues here https://honda250rally.com/